sig rattler vs springfield saint

AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types. It started expanding at about 6 inches and fragmented at 15, leaving just the lead core and base at 26 inches. As far as stabilization, it features the fairly standard SB Tactical SBA3 brace. Facing off in a handgun challenge featuring the smallest professional-grade enclosed red dot sight on the market, Eric and Tom put the Acro P-2 to the distance test by doing a walk-back challenge. Hence there are solid copper bullets for high speed applications in 16 inch carbines (1/6 rate or greater) that shoot 300 BLK, but the ammo is expensive. Springfield Armory SAINT 5.56 NATO [MSRP $919] Sig Sauer M400 Tread 5.56 NATO [MSRP $949] - 16 Stainless Steel Barrel, Free-Floating M-LOK Handguard, . Like the MPX, the MCX uses a short-stroke gas piston system, which does away with the need for a buffer system, and the weapon can use a folding stock or no stock at all. The Springfield Armory Saint Edge PDW brings to mind a saying from Rush Limbaugh: Illustrating absurdity by being absurd. It offers, at least when compared to a standard rifle/carbine, compromised ballistics and a nearly comical appearance, and I havent done executive protection work in quite some time. The Tread was $799.00 and the Saint was $849.00. Indoors, every load produced visible flash, but premium ammo gave me a small, manageable flash. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win. Privacy Policy. Springfield Armory Saint Victor. American Shooting Centers is a public range, and placing the rifle in the racks during cease fires with the bolt locked open required care because any impact to the buttstock would release the bolt. We really liked the handguard. Additionally, given the use of heavier bullets (200-grains plus and thereabouts), the loads have a smaller powder charge compared to their supersonic counterparts. To install (or remove for cleaning), you have to pop out both pins on the lower receiver and then slide the upper receiver back and forth. Eric Poole and Tom Beckstrand test the Aimpoint Acro P-2 against one of red dot sights' biggest myths: distance. The barrel is only 5.5 inches longsomething unthinkable with a direct-impingement AR. Springfield provides a hand stop to keep your fingers from straying in front of the muzzle, but it is somewhat reduced in size. Can't wait to find the price on this and see one in person . Knowing this, I still was dubious when I picked up the PDW from my local FFL. Visually, this made them less obvious. Compare. During our action test, we simply ignored the sights and read the dot. In these times, what you want and what is available are two very different things. Springfield Armory's $899 Saint, the manufacturer's first AR-15, was treated to a Bravo Company BCM Gunfighter stock and Keymod handrail. You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers. Honestly, theres not a ton to ballyhoo on the pistol other than it runs, dependably so. Colt Model 1861 Special Musket: What's Its Value? Eventually, ammo manufacturers answered the call, and now dozens offer 300 Blackout loads for a variety of uses. Measuring Performance A PDW is not a rifle. But upon closer inspection, we noticed that the safety and magazine release were ambidextrous. Not as expensive as their Carbon Fiber wrapped Barrel model, but probably my most costly AR15 to date. This website contains many older reviews. Working the charging handle was smooth and revealed no linear movement. The issue is, get it wrong, send a bullet yawling at the muzzle and youre contending with endcap and baffle strikes in your suppressor. To this end, the Protector boasts Wilsons excellent M2 two-state TTU trigger, factory set to between 4.5 to 5 pounds. The Tread was $799.00 and the Saint was $849.00. Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. Upon an audible start signal, the shooter raised the carbine from low ready (about a 30-degree angle to the horizon), switched off the safety, and engaged each target with only one round before moving on. Choice of ammunition for AR-15s used to be limited by the 1:9-inch-twist barrel. For our distance work we mounted a SIG Sauer 3-12x42mm Tango4 optical scope ($900 MSRP). Using the Lehigh Defense ammunition, its a 50-yard rifle. Unless otherwise noted, these reviews carry the guns prices at the time of the original review. Joe Kurtenbach and Caleb Giddings also look at the first-ever optics-ready carry revolvers with the new Taurus 605 and 856 T.O.R.O. What more can you ask for? The Springfield Saint AR-15 is a great entry-level AR-15 that is easy to use and customize. The recoil was manageable with the hottest loads, and it was a pleasure to shoot with subsonics. We also tested with 77-grain OTM 223 Remington rounds manufactured by SIG Sauer. Coming in at 5.1 pounds empty, sporting a 5.5-inch barrel and folded length of 17 inches, the MCX Rattler is definitely compact enough to be carried anywhere. Barrel-twist rate was 1:7, and breaking down the rifle revealed a reduced-mass hammer. Both rifles have a similar price, $809 for the Saint with discount code and $799 for the Tread. Suppressed, the Rattler ran everything on the supersonic setting (less gas). Instead of a GI-pattern charging handle, the PDW sports Springfields midsize charging handle, which is substantially larger than the GI model. My wife surprized me with a Birthday gift this year the new CZ TS2 Blue . I'll go with the Sig and do those upgrades for sure. This is why the gun world is awash in top-notch 300 Blackout pistols. That never occurred with the Dead Air Sandman-K, but the Rattler never missed a beat with either and ejected every case as fast as could I pull the trigger. Bob Meinert, FN Marketing Director, introduces FN's first commercial pistol suppressor, the FN Rush 9Ti. In use, it seemed to all but disappear. .224 Valkyrie Small Precision Rifle Cartridge: Everything You Need to Know, Buyer Beware: Buying 'Bargain' Guns Can Be Risky. In the same breath, the gun is compact enough to enhance its nimbleness, yet big enough to ensure the cartridges ballistic integrity. Thanks Bio. I own and have experience in small arms and shotguns, so this will be an entry level AR for me. The aluminum hanguard is 6 inches long and has M-LOK attachment slots. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. and at a gun show I saw the Sig Cross bolt rifle . In addition to all that, for the features you get on this pistol, it is priced very reasonably. Any ways I just bought the Springfield Saint Victor in .308 . Every MCX also comes with an ambidextrous safety selector and magazine release for righties and lefties. If we were to describe the bolt lock/release assembly as a seesaw, the typical lower end could be seen as being constructed without the seat. One set of Keymod holes was located on the underside at 6 oclock. But I would take the Sig over the Springfield every day of the week, and twice on Sundays. This article on theSIG MCX Rattler is from the May/June 2018 issue of Tactical Life magazine. The stripped-down SBR version of the Rattler weighs in at 5.7 pounds. Now more are jumping into the AR-15 market. Saw that email pop up today. The only mistake Springfield made on an otherwise terrific design, was to have the hand guard ride over the threads. Featuring a 5.5" PDW barrel, the MCX platform has never been more compact or accessible. But if you want range, get a longer-barreled rifle with a slower twist rate to optimize 125-grain loads. The efficiency and versatility of barrels have been upgraded to take advantage of heavier bullets able to land a more effective blow at greater distance. Since then, the company expanded the line of guns to include a range of variations that fall into three main lines. (Notice they fixed this on the new Edge pistol with a longer barrel.) However, if youre shooting supersonic, its right on target. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Decibels dont drop like flies with every load. Wow just read the article on TTAG. It also directs sound and blast forward, away from the shooter and provides some flash reduction. Lets see if our money was well spent. Target right showed five A-zone shots. Springfield Armory SAINT Victor AR-15s; WATCH: SIG Sauer M400 . It began in earnest in the late 1980s. All remaining rounds produced 1-inch groups. It's basically a bcm with the Saint logo on it. Fitting right into this slot is the Saint Victor 300 Blackout Pistol. As to suppressibility, few centerfire rifle cartridges do it better. Given the paperwork and money you spent on the can, is it worth testing twist-rates theories yourself? The bottom of the grip was removable, and there were fittings to hold popular batteries such as the CR123 or AA inside. The new 9mm suppressor can mount easily to any pistol barrel threaded x28 inches and doesn't compromise on sound suppression, gas blowback or recoil. To carry the Rattler discreetly, I used Eberlestocks Combat Office Brief, which represents a typical messenger bag, as well as several other covert packs in my inventory, including some camera bags. Before we get there, lets look at the concept of the personal-defense weapon (PDW). Its very handy. The new rifle is built on an aluminum billet chassis with carbon-fiber forend and cheek riser featuring V-block bedding. Written and photographed by Roger Eckstine, using evaluations from Gun Tests team testers. Love my M400 Tread and if I was in the market for another AR Rifle, i'd absolutely consider it. Thanks Bio. But it was visible when we used the Romeo4 red-dot scope. It loves 150 grain bullets, does well down to 120 grain below that that deer,hog killer doesnt group to my expectations. This gun was designed from the ground up to be as discrete as possible while retaining all the capabilities of the MCX. Sig 716i or Springfield Victor Saint .308, https://www.surplusammo.com/categori-308-mags.html, MISC Training Course Announcements & AAR's, Former Vickers Shooting Method Regional Instructors, Pacific Northwest Training and Networking, All Other Longgun Parts, Accessories, & Magazines (EE), Handgun Parts, Accessories & Magazines (EE), If this is your first visit, be sure to The other rifles did not suffer this complaint. We think this made the trigger a little more user friendly in that there seemed to be more time for the shooter to completely refine a shot. Springfield Armory of Illinois has been producing its own versions of the iconic M1A rifle for many years, but Springfield, like several other manufacturers, is known primarily as makers of handguns, or for that matter bolt-action rifles. That said, and this being Wilson, dont expect some off-the-rack experience with the gun. I wanted to see if the bullets would expand at close range given their lower velocities. Granted you give up some ballistic performance, but gain a gat easy to transport and, yes, conceal (say in a backpack). General guidelines dictate a 1:7 twist rate (there are also the odd 1:5 examples) for subsonic 300 Blackout and a 1:8 or slower for supersonic. Both suppressors were more effective than, say, a flash suppressor or muzzle brake, but dont expect the gun to be as quiet as those shown in the movies. The SCW assembly isnt just a short buffer tube; it includes a shortened, proprietary bolt carrier group (BCG), and the buffer and spring protrude into the upper receiver when the bolt is closed. For an AR, it conceals and transports incredibly well, is surprisingly soft-shooting, accurate and reliable, unique and fun. Shooting the Black Hills 60-grain V-Max 223 ammunition, we were rewarded with five-shot groups that measured an average of just 0.6 inch across. The Sig Enhanced is heavy and not as responsive as youd expect in a gun of this class, somewhat akin to a mil-spec job. MSRP: $2,000; wilsoncombat.com. Just Got this in my e-mail . But the safety and the magazine release were ambidextrous. This video does make me feel better about Springfield. Got to check one out a few days ago at my LGS who's a Tier 1 Sig dealer. My wife said I'm going to buy me a new gun which one do you think the Blue or Orange . But I will check out Sig's new Tread SE to see if I like it Yeah. I installed it on an AR carbine but ended up taking it off, because while it felt good in my hand, it just didnt look right to my eye. The Rattler has a one in five twist rate. I have a sig elite which is similar to the tread, no issues solid rifle. This rifle also features a free float M-LOK handguard, ambidextrous controls and a rotating bolt system. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201for-carve-out/, http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685, https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017cal-gun-dealer, http://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/03/5406606027600/, St. Gabriel Possenti Patron Saint of Handgunners, If this is your first visit, be sure to I found myself hooking my index finger around the front of it while shooting as opposed to actually using it as a hand stop. The second can was the Dead Air Sandman-K, which is slightly heavier at 12.8 ounces yet only 0.7 inches longer. Listen to both sides of the story before you make a decision based on one magazine article. Built with a premium nickel boron coated trigger, forged carrier, enhanced Melonite coated carrier group and a pinned gas block, every rifle is built for ultimate reliability. With the stock folded, the gun is only 16 inches long, making it the shortest 300 Blackout weapon on the market. He called it a stutter. With the Saint Edge series of ARs, you get nicely sculpted lower receivers machined from billet aluminum. It is everywhere and inexpensive, especially when compared to those two boutique cartridges. Whereas releasing the bolt is aided by the larger platform, setting the lock means pressing down on the smaller end. To the average shooter the price tag doesnt quite reflect it, but the Protector is top-shelf Wilson Combats entry-level 300 Blackout pistol option. At the range, my first order of business was zeroing the Rattler and shooting five-shot groups with it at 50 yards using loads from Barnes, Hornady, Lehigh Defense and Sig. Probably 2k rounds through it and has always gone bang. After our run with the Saint, all three targets showed five hits. The first and third pics are the rifle I examined, but the second isn't. I usually have to take break between mags. Anything beyond 100 yards and that starts to fade. Definitely looking at the Sig, but having a hard time forking over that much money. The new big bore pistols feature industry-first capacity, with a standard 15-round capacity and 22+1 rounds of 10mm or 18+1 rounds of .45 ACP from the extended magazines. As to the tale of the tape, the gun has a 10.5-inch cold hammer-forged barrel (1:7 twist) and comes in at a very agile 5.8 pounds. Im looking eventually for a Tread 400 (maybe this one?). Top 300 Blackout Pistol Options For Every Budget, 5 Best AR-10 Options You Can Actually Afford (2023), Best .380 Pistol Options For Deep Carry (2023), 8 On-Target Concealed Carry Insurance Options (2022), 10 Affordable Double-Barrel Shotgun Options (2022), Best AR-15 Options For Any Budget And Buyers Guide (2022), Best Concealed Carry Handguns For Women (2022). The Saint was the only carbine in the test that listed a heavy tungsten buffer among its specs, and it showed by delivering less felt recoil to the shooter. I had several concerns due to its comically short barrel, its accuracy, reliability and velocity. They screwed up, realize it, and took care of the problem. However, moving to the Barnes, Hornady and Lehigh Defense rounds changed things. Combine the heft with a quality suppressor and the Blackouts recoil is negated to next to nothing, giving the pistol excellent follow-up shot accuracy. Completely compatible with average, every day 5.56 ARs, the 300 Blackout upper is a viable route into the caliber (though if you shoot suppressed you might have to up your buffer weight). To find out if any of the above added up to improved performance, we tested for accuracy from the 100-yard line at American Shooting Centers in Houston. The buttstock, although appearing very much in the M4 tradition, was modified to offer holes on each side for a quick-detach sling loop. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets. Twist rate on bullets is a debatemine is 1:7 on 9 barrel. This eliminates the crack that coincides with the bullet leaving the muzzle caused by the projectile breaking the sound barrier. The Black Hills 77-grain OTM rounds were next best, showing an average five-shot group measuring about 0.9 inch. Sig Sauer M400 Tread .223/5.56 Semi-Automatic 30rd 16" I own and have experience in small arms and shotguns, so this will be an entry level AR for me. This removed any slack between the upper and lower ends of the rifle. What surprised me as much as the complete reliability was how soft-shooting the PDW was. Get 12 Issues a year of the country's best firearms writing. Target order was dictated as a circuit of left, center, right, left, center, right, and so on. Want to optimize the hush on a 300 Blackout pistolor carbineits a subsonic ammunition affair. Caliber: 300 AAC Blackout-MSRP: 1015. check out the, Welcome to the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Forum, we hope you like what you find here and we strongly encourage you to. A wide selection of CMP surplus ammo will 2023 JNews - Premium WordPress news & magazine theme by Jegtheme. models. I recently got the Tread 716i 308, MCX Rattler in 300 BLK and MPX K (completes my collection as I also have the MPX Copperhead and PCC). Operating the trigger in a controlled press, the trigger seemed to find two stopping points before finally breaking a shot. And After shooting the CZ 75 Tatical sport orange I was in love . We applied a snap-on buttpad from Limbsaver and was pleasantly surprised at how much more comfortable it was to shoot. Featured one of the most consistent triggers weve tried and costly ambidextrous controls. Personally Id avoid Springfield due to personal issues with the company and their politics. For a full answer to that, were going to have to explore exactly what a PDW is, but before I do that, lets look at the specs of this gun. I wrote SilencerCo to ask about the Hybrid compatibility. That's a $1000 dollar rifle and a good deal at that but you're getting gouged pretty bad at 1400. The Rattler is, essentially, as. With the specs they listed, the barrel couldnt be much more than 6 inches, and it had to havethe ability to swap between the specd .300 BLK top end and one chambered in 5.56. But like you, I also bought the SA Saint Victor 300 BLK pistol, which is very well made. Our days at the range were somewhat windy, so waiting for a lull before releasing a shot was standard procedure. Matte Black. You have entered an incorrect email address! Keeping all the shots inside the A-zone was important, but for our purposes we wanted to know what characteristics were helping or hindering the shooter. One of the ways that we suspect the suggested retail price of the Saint was held down was by utilizing an A1 front-sight assembly. 354K views 4 years ago In this episode of TFBTV, James Reeves reviews the SIG MCX Rattler, a 5.5" PDW in .300BLK that has been purchased for US SOCOM evaluation. To extend it, just give the brace a vigorous yank. It's perfect for sporting or home defense with high reliability and some furniture and trigger upgrades that set it apart from other budget AR-15s. All in, our CMMG rifle displayed 1-MOA accuracy on average for all shots fired, despite our difficulties with the trigger. I wrote SilencerCo another letter, under a different email. What sets the SIG MCX Rattler apart? PDWs in the modern era see most use with government security details where large rifles are not needed. However, the range in resistance spanned from about 6.75 pounds to almost 8.0 pounds. I'm like seriously I could of got the checkmate . Aristotle who said Republics devolve into democracies and devolve into despotism.. Following the success of its initial collaboration with Vertx, Premier Body Armor announces its continued partnership. April 23, 2020 By Sean Utley While there are many good suppressors available, in my experience there are a few notable brands and models which, from a durability/longevity standpoint, I would consider first when looking to purchase a suppressor. I have builds from BCM, Springfield, Noveske and PSA. Whereas the SIG Sauer presented direct pressure against a solid object, the Saints trigger offered a subtle compression before reaching its breaking point. When not at his press or the range he can be found chasing mule deer around the Rocky Mountains. At 1,900 fps, youll still get a good permanent wound cavity, some temporary cavity and the ability to defeat armor in most cases. For more information, please see our Also, unlike the HK MP7 and FN P90, you can actually buy a Springfield Armory PDW. This five-position brace was specifically designed for PDW-sized guns and only hangs 4 inches off the back of the receiver when fully collapsed. But we loved the buttpad and the overall contour of the stock. Essentially, this makes the suppressors job easier, since it has less expanding gas to dissipate. But its really a 100-yard rifle with supersonic ammunition. . At that time the price on that gun was $1,800. Specs and Features Parts are straight off the "recommended" list, as Saint uses an M16-profile USGI-spec bolt carrier group with a select Carpenter 158 bolt.